Question into the ether: Is tonight a CONO night?

I've been submerged in work last week and this, and have pretty much lost track of time!

CONO is the 4th Tuesday of every month at 7 pm... tonight is 4th Tuesday... it is therefore a CONO evening at Decatur Public Library.

From what I have seen for the agenda this evening, Christy Quintenz from American Red Cross will be speaking about CPR training.

I am sorry to say that I missed the Home Park neighborhood meeting. Can someone give me a report?

Hi John

The Ravina/Homepark meeting went well we had 3 new families come and are very excited in forming a group. We have quite a few other families interested in joining but not interested in being part of the start up which is just fine.  We are going to have another informational meeting soon, a date has not been set yet.  The next meeting place will be on the other end of our neighborhood at Oak Grove Park.  We also want to have a couple during the week just in case weekends are bad for some.  Either Kris or I will post the next meeting here and have a notice inserted in the paper.  If you are a Facebook user the group has a page under Ravina/Home Park neighborhood Association, anyone in the neighborhood that would like to get involved or even if you just want info please join the group on Facebook.



The CONO meeting was very good. Christy  from the Red Cross has secured a grant that will allow the Red Cross to train up to 30 people in CPR and AED.   Their is normally a cost associated with the training but because of the grant 30 people will be eligible for the free training.  If you need more info call Christy at the Red Cross 428-7758 or talk  to your neighborhood representative.

Stephanie from the City brought a proposed ordinance for requiring a permit to install a new fence on your property.  If you are planning on installing a new fence structure I encourage you to check out the City Website and read on the proposal.  I believe their is an open forum May 7th at the civic center discussing the proposal.  The new plan didn't go over so well with everyone at CONO so I suggest you check out the rules and form your own opinion.  The fee for the fence installation permit is set at $25.  Again this is a proposal nothing is official yet and Stephanie brought the proposal to gain feedback to take back to her supervisor.

Their is a bunch of stuff going on in the neighborhoods.   Robert Maulding hopefully will post here what his neighborhood group is going to do with an all day event.  I encourage anyone no matter where you live to come support the Lions Park area.  

I know I have left a ton stuff out but the old Steele trap might be getting a little rusty.

I forgot to add Decatur Navigaator is a blog ran by Kris that will also have all the Ravina/Homepark info. 

Hi Doug,

 

Yes it was a good meeting.  I think I may have been the main person concerned on the fence ordinance idea. J   And I’m going to put this out there for discussion or input from anyone else….  It concerns me that it could make it more difficult for a homeowner to make their property a safer place.  From my point of view fences may be solving some problems as well - especially in the marginal neighborhoods.  It just really made me panic when I heard the city focusing on more regulation and fees for something as important to me as my fence!!!

 

Without my fence I don’t think I would have been able to stay here during some of the ups and downs of my neighborhood.  That fence gives me a tiny private backyard where I can sit outside and enjoy a summer night and feel safe and not on display.   That fence blocks the view from the side walk into my bedroom windows.  That fence makes my screened in side porch a place I can sleep on in the summer. Without my fence there would be no place in my yard I can keep something I do not want stolen or damaged by vandals because my entire yard is street front. That fence adds so much to this home of mine that I don’t think I’d want to stay here without it. 

 

I’m a strong proponent of raising the bar in our neighborhoods and making sure we are all considerate and respectful of our neighbors but if the ordinance is identical to current fence ordinance then why not just enforce the current ordinance when there are complaints like we do everything else?  It is obviously illegal to put a fence on your neighbor’s property and if you do (unless they don’t mind) you need to be required to take it down or move it.  If it blocks the view of traffic it needs removed or modified as well.  Or if it needs maintained enforce the maintenance.

 

In addition it seems to me that it would take more staff time if an inspector has to check every single fence plan before it goes in rather than only those that generate complaints.  In my opinion we already do not have enough inspectors relative to the number of problem properties we have and this would spread them even thinner.

 

But my prime concern is in the marginal neighborhoods with crime problems where we already struggle to retain and add good caring responsible residents. I believe making it more difficult for someone make their home safer is a bad idea.

 

I’m putting this out there for discussion - maybe there are a lot of fence problems and I would be interested to hear it from other points of view if some of you have experienced them…

 

Sue

Ps.  I did appreciate that city brought the ordinance up at the meeting.  I really appreciate the heads up they often give on things like this so we just don't hear em at the council meeting!  We can try to be informed prior...

 

 

 

On the fence issue I was baffled at the reasoning for the ordinance.  If the ordinance included the City telling the home owner where the actual boundaries are so that a neighbor cant complain about the fence being located on his property I could see how the fee would be justified.  My understanding is the City will not tell you where you can or can't put the fence which does not solve the boundary issue.  Their are already laws concerning fences and I can't see how buying a permit fixes anything.   If a permit is required then the builder should at least be guaranteed the fence is legal and no one can make them tear it down or move it.  To me this ordinance is over priced at $25.00 if their is still a chance of a fence being built that would break the current laws and need to be moved or removed.  This is only for new fence installation if you currently have a fence you would be able to make repairs with out getting a permit.

Sue when was the date they are planning on discussing this again?   

I assume the discussion will be at the planning commission meeting which I think is next week.   Matthew should know I think this is the commission he is on. 

Generally city legal is at the meeting but they weren't last night.  It would have been helpful to have a better understanding of the reasons behind it.  I thought if you were replacing an existing fence it would also come into play?   I couldn't find it on the city web site to read it over....

John,  the neighborhood meeting was small but, like Doug said, there's several people interested.  I've had people email me and call me who missed the meeting, so we'll have another one soon. 

I missed the CONO meeting last night.  It's been a crazy, busy week.  I just got back from Springfield from the Capitol building.   I met our new Senator.  He seems like a very nice person.  The only thing I didn't like was driving in Springfield.  I drove for half an hour trying to find a parking spot around the Capitol building and another half and hour just trying to find my way back out of Springfield.  That city doesn't believe in signs!  At least Decatur has big green signs up on our major roads telling drivers how to get to the interstate, a major highway or another town!  I wanted to fall on my hands and knees and kiss my front yard when I got home.  If you ever want to appreciate Decatur, go somewhere else for a while.  Decatur is a very nice place to live and drive!  But I do want to go back over and visit the Illinois Museum and of course, Lincoln's museum again.  I'll never get tired of that.

What's this about a fence ordinance?  I think I heard something a few months ago about the city getting after people with vegetation growing in their fences.  I'm guilty of that one.  And the boundaries are all goofed up in my neighborhood.  Taking a look at the city's digital atlas, our garage is a foot away from the boundary, though there's actually three or four feet between the garage and fence now.  A third of my neighbor's shed is sitting in our backyard.  A house down the street has a boundary going through their living room.  It's totally messed up.

Kris

I think Stephanie said if you change the design of the fence you would need the permit.  (I called it ordinance but that's different than permit or is it)?  If the owner was just replacing sections for improvement to an existing fence then a permit is not needed.

I guess my question would be what is the purpose for the permit if there is still a chance the fence could be disputed and be in violation.  May 7th at 3:00 p.m. sticks in my mind for the discussion of this.

The way the ordinance is written it will not solve any problems, it will cause people to have to get a permit that will cost them $25.  The fence in my yard is the only way this neighborhood is bearable, without it I would be victimized daily.  As it is my yard has been broken into 20 times plus.  Remember, numerous blocks have been fenced off-ed by the city.  Those fences caused complaints, and even this ordinance will not stop any fence from being built.   It will merely cause a fine to be assessed.  We already have an ordinance governing fences and they should enforce that.  Additionally, the wait while a permit is approved is ridiculous, who is going to do this?  Neighborhood standards?  Aren't they over taxed now to even do their jobs?  This is a bad ordinance and the city plans to justify it by saying well other cities charge and require a fence permit.  Other cities are not having a problem populating the inner city like we are.  IT IS ABOUT MONEY NOT MAKING NEIGHBORHOODS SAFER.  The few complaints the city gets do not justify making everyone PAY the price.  Without a fence many families would not buy a house in the inner city.  Drive around and tell me we need this!  What we need is enforcement of current ordinances and amendments to them.   Tackle the problems that matter not this issue it is not a good idea, as many people stated last night at the CONO meeting.  we have a way for neighbors to resolve problems already and this ordinance does not promise anything except a price and a wait, nothingelse!

So what exactly is the city trying to accomplish with the changes to the fence ordinance or whatever we want to call it?  Are they trying to get rid of ugly, unmaintained fences to help beautify neighborhoods, or are they addressing some other issue?  Forgive all the dumb questions.  I haven't heard what the city wants to do.  What are the proposed changes?

Kris

Existing fences will be non conforming and as such exempt unless you want to replace or rebuild it.   They are trying to raise more money and control the types size and form that you may want to build.  They want to address barbed, razor and other types of fencing.   They are just hiding it in a new ordinance so it looks like they are doing something when in fact they are just want to get your $25!  The ordinance does not address any concerns that neighbors have, nor does it give them a way to appeal a decision!  IT IS ALL ABOUT THE $25!

Also, for me the fence issue is a pretty emotional area - actually I think for all of us neighborhood issues are emotional.

Dealing with our homes and neighborhoods - what helps what hurts - it is emotional how else could it be?

Sue

Sue, I think neighborhood issues are emotional.  Nothing riles up people like issues taking place in their own backyard - quite literally in this case.

 

Taking a break for lunch (looking forward to tomorrow! The last two weeks have been zany!)

I'm on the plan commission, so I should be getting some information pretty soon (haven't checked mail yet today, so maybe it's already in my inbox)... I'll pass along my thoughts when I read through the packet – and I encourage feedback!
 

Next week should be much more “normal” for me, so should have time to get back in to the regular groove.
 

.My biggest concern is that we are sure in certain neighborhoods we are lenient in what is allowed because a fence can mean so much in the way of safety and liveabliity.  And like Robert says we want to, need to attract and retain good residents in these areas.  By lenient I don't mean sloppy or poorly maintained I just mean that we let residents do what they need to do to  make the property they already own as safe and usuable as possible especially in the case the neighborhood has declined around you.   
Also, the additional cost could be problem for many as well especially those in the areas that need a fence the most.  But there may be ways to address that...

I reacted negatively right off out of MAJOR concern that some how my fence would not be allowed since now all will be scrutinized prior to replacement which all fences eventually need.  Currently unless someone complains it really does not get looked at. 

Once I got the details from Greg - which we did not have at the meeting - it looks as if they have actually made it more lenient in some ways.  I think this is good and thoughtful to those living in problem areas.   

Also, we propose some looser requirements for residents including allowing residential property owners to erect their fence up to 8 feet in height when they are adjacent to heavier land uses including multi-family, commercial and industrial uses.  Currently, no residential owners can erect their fence higher than 6 feet.  Also, residential owners will be allowed to erect fences up to 6 feet in height on one side of their yard fronting a street if they are located on a corner lot.  The front yard will be determined by which street the front door faces.  Currently, the fence can only be erected up to 4 feet in height for both yards when located on a corner lot

And like you Kris,  I can see the issues he listed being problems that need to be addressed.   Like Robert said above I just did not ever consider fences a major issue (other then being allowed to have it!!).  But that doesn't mean it isn't.  In our neighborhoods the problems are more about crime, weed filled lots, garbages filled garages and alleys and diplapidated properties and litter and general disrepect of your neighbor.  But many parts of town do not have these types of issues and fences may very well be a problem city staff spends much time dealing with I don't know they said it is at the meeting.   

The way I understood Wendy the reason they are wanting to do this prior to putting in the fence is because city does not get involved in private property issues so once your neighbors fence is on your property it is your problem to proscute him.  Or at least that is how I understood a response I got from her.  

Look forward to your comments Matthew.   When does the commission meet?  

Also while I'm thinking of it - the next CONO meeting will have a demo of the cameras that were installed in the Weed and Seed area pretty cool I hear....

Sue 

PS.  Even though I feel better about this then I did my biggest concern is we make sure that it is easy, quick and inexpensive to do what you believe you need to do make your property safer and more liveable while respecting your neighbors needs as well of course.   And it would be great to get the help locating those boundaries

All of those issues from the City are already covered by law but evidently not enforced.  How will purchasing a permit solve any of these problems?  I see the need for people to be educated on these laws and if issuing a permit is the only way to communicate the laws then why not a $5.00 fee since other than telling the constructor the law the permit solves nothing.

If I buy a permit and it gets the ok from City and then I build my fence on my neighbors property (which should be a no brain-er to everyone that its not legal to do) what has the permit accomplished.  The City would never know since they don't know the boundaries either.  

I know surrounding towns have this permit I guess I would now ask do these surrounding towns mark the lot lines so that a fence is not built on the wrong property?

After what Adam Brown heard at the CONO meeting he probably won't vote for this fence ordinance.  He clearly heard many of us had a problem with it.  I think he will inform the rest that there is an objection.  As for the Building commision meeting, it is held while most people are at work.  Including me!  So Matthew you are left to communicate that there are some objections!   I will be heard at the council meeting Monday!   I intend to object and request the building commision meetings be moved to evenings every other month.  Government should work for the people not against them!  We already have ordinances that cover fences that are not enforced and to add the fee, along with the permit that is to much.  I promise that the permits will not take 7 days.  In Decatur a permit adds months to every project!  this ordinance promises nothing to the residences except a wait and a fee. 

Bob, I think one thing it adds is an enforcement tool. The city did not end up doing anything about the fence that was put up over the neighboorhood standards objections. It was discussed in closed session at council and nothing changed. It is clear under the law the city can make you undo any changes you would perform to your property without a permit. Ben to court lots of time over the years. I think they figured out their only course of action was to take the car museum guy to court, without clear legal authority to make him change what he installed. I think he went ahead with the fence the way he wanted because the city did not have a good way to stop him.
Hence the permit, without one the judge will tell you to tear it all out. I know  a guy it happened to, years ago he enclosed a porch without a permit and they make him tear the walls out.
Steve Payton

A few bad apples and the whole city would have to pay ($25 and wait)  I believe it is an enforcement tool, BUT they don't use the ones they have now and the building inspectors are already taking to long and too many revisions are made.   If we make it harder to make ours homes safer more people will leave!  This is a bad idea!  The City could have done more but didn't, just like so many cases.  Drive around the city and tell me the City legal, neighborhood standards and building inspectors are doing the best they can!  On most blocks there is a house for sale and most of them could use a good fence.  Without the fence I have I would have to move.  I suspect that it will become another cumbersome hoop that we will have to jump through because of a very very few bad apples.   We already have a way to do everyone of things they want to accomplish with this ordinance, the difference is they don't get our money right now!  Should we really make it harder for people to live in Decatur? 

Anyone give me an example of how this ordinance changes anything for the better? Caution: Re-read it.  Not what Greg wrote but the actual ordinance!
What does it change?  Who or what would benefit from this change?
What does it take to get a permit for anything, besides a lot of time and money?
Why does the City say "other cities have this, so we must need it"?  But, other cities have Landlord Licensing and a strong enforcement of standards, we don't?

This is a clear example of having to many people thinking about ways to control the lawful people instead of making the folks that do not understand the rule of law conform to an acceptable standard.

Barring a swine flu epidemic, this week is a return to normalcy for me (which is a good thing!).

 

I've read and re-read the proposed modifications, and I've got to say I'm seeing two separate issues in it. Frankly I don't mind the limitations on razor wire, and most of the the changes in the ordinance don't seem unreasonable. However I'm really not seeing the permit part of the proposal. To me the question is: “How does requiring a permit/injecting a control point (which is what this permit-stuff is) serve the public interest?” This is one question I'm going to ask Greg on Thursday...Maybe there's a great reason for it, but I've got to say that right now, I'm not seeing it.

 

What else would you all like me to ask about, and why? Feel free to hit me with an email at matthew4657@yahoo.com (as always!) if you'd rather not reply here on the site.

 

Robert – I'm 100% with you on the “make commission meetings easier to attend” thought. Selfishly speaking, I burn a quarter day's worth of vacation time every time I go to a Plan Commission meeting – which is all part of the deal, and I knew I was going to have to do it when I accepted (I'm not complaining!), but I wouldn't refuse having an extra 3-or-so days of vacation time a year to spend with Debbie and the kids!

 

Where in the heck on the city web site are you all finding this to read it over?  I can't find it anywhere!!    Sue